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PIPES ARE DEAD

PIPES ARE DEAD

Posted by PaKoH on 5/2/2005
 Featured
Major minor cut in half pedestal w/

All black bub.

the death of glass pipes.....

thanks to Max Polin and Tim Carruthers for inspiration and Brooklyn from Bellingham for helping me cut this bitch in half.

(please read thread below for further explinations)
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Back to Parent Page: Door #3




 Artist:   PaKoH  Contact Artist 
PaKoH
"either you love me or you hate me.... or you just dont care."
"i wanna be a non-conformist just like everybody else" -Banksy

pakoh on myspace:
http://www.myspace.com/fukinpakoh
pakoh on glassartists.org: http://www.glassartists...692_Pakoh_s_Gallery.asp



*All work is for artistic appreciation only*




TO SEE ALL OF MY WORK CHECK OUT
www.THAT AINT ART.COM

http://www.thataintart.com/


Comments
  • Bearclaw78
    		 wow
    Bearclaw78: that's crazy man...that torch looks dead..pipes are dead huh? the whole presentation makes me feel strange, i don't know.. kinda depressed...kinda sick...kinda don't know what to feel.... must be art.dark
    5/2/2005 2:51 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 hmmm
    Bearclaw78: a sense of forboding,,it almost makes me angry...
    5/2/2005 2:59 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 could you
    Bearclaw78: in a couple of days...elaborate on the emotions that went into this idea? ... don't know why this gets me..sorry for the multiple posts...dark
    5/2/2005 3:05 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 hmmmm..
    Bearclaw78: makes me feel like the future is uncertain..better words...bleak...hopeless...sorry just typing my thoughts.. thanks for sharing this..what does everyone else think?
    5/2/2005 3:08 PM
  • Slinger
    		 YES!
    Slinger: word up lil bro, is this my birthday present?
    5/2/2005 3:50 PM
  • Eugene Rain
    		 What do we think?
    Eugene Rain: Well Pakoh is a nut, and his work is nutty, so we of course are thrilled to see it! Wicked piece. ;-)

    Misha
    5/2/2005 3:50 PM
  • Smiley
    		 Art......this is what its about.....
    Smiley: I gotta agree with some of bearclaws' sentiments....this piece does evoke strange,dark ,maybe kinda industrial ,& bleak emotions...but its great to see this kind of exploration,.....sorta thought provoking............( probably the best thing to do with a major burner any way ).........GREAT PIECE.....
    5/2/2005 4:27 PM
  • Smiley
    		 ?????????????
    Smiley: whats this pipes are dead stuff,?...I wonder what you mean ,if anything, by that...It seems to me that after a certain point ,pipecraft and art converge, and become indistinguishable, personally ,I consider most of what I do art, & sometimes ,if I have to put some stratigicaly placed holes to sell it...that does'nt diminish the artistic value to me........I'm not sure where I was going with this.......so yeah...ah... cool piece........
    5/2/2005 5:13 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 i agree
    Bearclaw78: i think that is the part that is confusing me.. but ya, cool piece for sure.....
    5/2/2005 5:41 PM
  • Slinger
    		 pipes are dead
    Slinger: well this is just my opinion, but personally, maybe its just me, but i find pipes to be unispiring, venturing on boring. I dont know, i really dont consider most pipes to be art, and if they are art, more of a base decorative artform. One thing that frustrates me about pipemakers considering themselves artists is that i dont think most do much more than play with the technical aspects of lampworked patterns and forms, and few to none are actually being "conceptual". Most peoples work is based on trying to technically out do past work, make a bigger more complicated piece, with the swirlies tweaked different, the ratti filled in, into the wigwag, into the raked flower, more canes, i split the reversal in half and made a bowtie, i took the bowtie and wigged the center... i used crayon orange and super sparkle blue. Its cool, but what does it say about the human condition?
    5/2/2005 6:18 PM
  • Chris Carlson
    		 yeah.
    Chris Carlson: makes it all almost feel like a lost cause. all emotions aside... the pipe is beautiful.the opal galaxy is great!! always so elegant..
    5/2/2005 6:19 PM
  • PaKoH
    		 beat me to it bro...
    PaKoH: well i just wrote what my brother said.

    im my opinion,

    Pipes and art converge on diferant levels.
    There are all levels of art and craft. High, Med, and Low.
    Many pipes can qualify into these catagories, but after the early 1900's high art questions the reasons for its materials.
    Many pipes rely on technical skill and lack conceptual continuity.
    To raise the level of pipe art there needs to be more questions asked and answered.

    So.. are pipes dead? prove me wrong....
    5/2/2005 6:32 PM
  • david hasslehoff (alex)
    		 pipes are the future ...
    David Hasslehoff Alex: what other form of art has such few guidelines???

    i think maybe pipes are dead is a more personal tile for "the pac"

    this mean your gonna quit making pipes???

    if so this pieces meaning just got 100 times more powerful.....
    5/2/2005 6:44 PM
  • david hasslehoff (alex)
    		 and...
    David Hasslehoff Alex: i think the whole reason there are so few guidelines in pipes is the reason so many of them cease to be art/artists.....

    deff nomad is not a artist....but what if the most classicly trained artist made pipes....would they cease to be art cause it's a pipe??

    with so much crap the line between artist and prodo machine making a buc are small.....but i think thats where the line should be drawn ...either your a artist or your not.....

    not weither pipes are art or not...
    5/2/2005 6:48 PM
  • david hasslehoff (alex)
    		 WHAT!!!
    David Hasslehoff Alex: do somthing...
    5/2/2005 6:49 PM
  • david hasslehoff (alex)
    		 i'm dmx bitch...
    David Hasslehoff Alex: arf, arf arf...
    5/2/2005 6:50 PM
  • Slinger
    		 guidelines
    Slinger: so if there are so few guidelines, how come pipe artists restrict themselves to not only reversals and honeycombs, but glass as a medium itself.... art transcends medium, the peice with the urine and cheese said more than 100 reversals re-reversed with a fish swimming around it.... smiley im calling you out too...in a friendly way:), but i want to challenge you when you say your work is art but with a few strategic holes.... is this really true? i dont believe it, in my mind i imagine that when you sit down to make one of your pieces, you know its gonna be a bubbler or tube or whatever right from the get go, and the whole piece is strategically based on being able to function as a pipe, ie the can is long and upright, sitting on a nice bubble, wide enough to fit a downstem, the stem looks down on the bowl, the marbles and the carb and canes are placed so they so that your hand can hold it and finger hit the carb, its not like your gonna put a marble right over the bowl so you can't "use" it, you know what i mean.... art is different things to different people, and if this is your definition i cant argue with you, but i think along the same lines as my brother, my opinion is that art challenges, asks a question and the baggage the viewer carries will effect the answer or reaction.... it would be interesting to propose to fine artists of past and present to take the form of a pipe as your inspiration and create a piece of art.... i bet the end result would be a diversity of work that would take the concept of "pipe" on far more tangents than what we see in headshops and on the net and the lot etc....
    5/2/2005 7:17 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 so much to say here
    Bearclaw78: i know alot of people do not think that pipes are art, and that by cutting a torch in half and putting a bub on it makes it so(which i do think was artistic)i love pakoh's work)))),but i still don't know what to think.... i consider myself an artist.. i put blood sweat , sometimes tears into the pipes i make. i occasionally break pieces that i don't think make the cut as being beautiful...i did it the other night..should i post a pic of that? would that be art?who knows man? what is art... the age old ??
    5/2/2005 7:25 PM
  • Slinger
    		 anyone who studied art history knows but....
    Slinger: ever since Duchamp put the urinal in the gallery, the game was changed forever.....
    5/2/2005 7:46 PM
  • david hasslehoff (alex)
    		 i'm a artist....
    David Hasslehoff Alex: i don't make art every day but......the fact i make pipes doesn't change the fact i'm a artist....and my artist vision comes through pipes sometimes....

    and i think the whole it's just reversal thing is crap....

    the fact that a piece is reversals is irrelevent...

    thats like saying somthing isn't art cause they used a certin color or medium.....a color pattren is such a small factor imp..art lies in the shaping and perportions...

    and the piss pipe.....i was there ..and we had many discussions over a long time.....i we still ? if it is really art...

    art is all how you view it...to me art isn't really piss and cheese...but people think it is....a artistic idea and art are 2 diffrent things...
    5/2/2005 7:50 PM
  • EA -Erik Anders
    		 cool discussion piece paco :)
    EA -Erik Anders: if pipes are dead then why does a pipe (intact) tower over a split/dead torch?

    i like what you said alex, the fact that a piece is reversals is irrelevent... thats like saying somthing isn't art cause they used a certin color or medium
    5/2/2005 8:11 PM
  • Slinger
    		 word
    Slinger: to me its about context, which is why i bring up Duchamp.... is a urinal art?, i dont think so, but in the context Duchamp used it, his concept and decision making made it qualify in many peoples minds as indeed a piece of art... so yeah is piss and cheese art?, not necessesarily, but perhaps in the context that adam g. used it, perhaps it is, but i agree, this is and always will be up for debate.... and i also agree, if it has reversals doesnt necessarily disqualify a pipe or piece from being art.... i really like how pakoh uses the "form" of a pipe and flips it on its side metaphorically to explore some of these very ideas, for instance, the pipe goblets, i especially like the ones with the clear spoons used as part of the "stand" for the pieces, i thought that was very clever, taking a clear spoon, something most of us would laugh at let alone call art, but in that conext, it took on a different sort of function(a stand) questioning its own "initially intended" fucntion(pipe)..... oh well, pakoh's piece inspired me to type.....
    5/2/2005 8:12 PM
  • Slinger
    		 heres what i was talking about..
    Slinger: http://www.glasspipes.org/Gallery.asp?GalleryID=10587
    5/2/2005 8:17 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 hmmmm
    Bearclaw78: if anything the torch is dead....like the bub defeated it and is standing over it's dead useles body....dripping with adrenalin and pride.....a black warrior pipe fresh from battle claiming it's trophy....pulsing with life and the rush of a victory.
    yah, that pipe is alive man...
    5/2/2005 8:20 PM
  • Antony
    		 art
    Antony: I think most of us pipemakers wind up saying that what we do is art because people TELL us it's art. How many times have you had someone watch you make a prodo piece and have them ooh and ahh and blab on about, "Wow man....cough....you're an artist. That's fuckin cool." hibbedy bibbedy.

    So what they're saying is that manipulating glass is an art. Much like mixing the perfect bloody mary is an art. And playing chess is an art. But is the actuall bloody mary a piece of art?

    Also, a lot of us just started out saying we were artists so we could tell our parents what the hell we we're doing out in the garage.

    Antony
    5/2/2005 8:20 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 hmmm
    Bearclaw78: art....perhaps like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.... who is qualified to judge such a thing??
    5/2/2005 8:23 PM
  • Ewok
    		 -
    Ewok: thats alot of black, nice opal galaxy marble
    5/2/2005 8:32 PM
  • Chris Carlson
    		 viva la pipa!!
    Chris Carlson: personally, "pipes are dead" has inspired me to make sure that isn't true. i'm not skilled enough to out tech most on here, but this has liberated me to make all the drawings i have designed yet postponed due to lack of skill. i promise the pipe is not dead, at least not in LA.
    5/2/2005 9:30 PM
  • Doshworld
    		 Dada?~artistic movement founded on a rejection of traditional artistic and cultural values....
    Doshworld: people have been asking these questionz for a long long time…and the answer? Really can I say or judge what art is? That’s ridiculous to me!! I mean am I to say; it iz what I like or what inspiorz just me? what if inspiorz just someone-anyone out there then iz it qualify az “ART”? maby art “just is” with out words. perhaps itz where wordz drift and thoughts swirl…
    5/3/2005 0:38 AM
  • Smiley
    		 art is by definition ,subjective....
    Smiley: in response to being "called out in a friendly way".... 1: nine tenths of what I've posted is pretty friggin old....2: I do extremely classy art ,both free form ,and traditional...for obvious reasons I don't post virtually any of it...especially in this circle of the "art" world../...3: I've actaully studied art history,painting ,sculpting,classical art, my mother and brother are also extremely talented artists ,in other more traditonal media and,blah ,blah blah.....anyway...check out the discussion on the goblet page in my gallery,I've typed up boat loads on the questions of craft and art,and what defines these things, and a lot of other folks did too.....but it seems silly for a bunch of pipemakers ,who without pipe buyers ,would'nt have the luxury of extra time to pursue real art,or sit around talking about "is the pipe dead"...What a stupid philosophical discussion that is....THE ART PIPE LIVES....and it's all too subjective for anyone to sit and tell themselves how correct their perspective is, and how wrong anyone elses'is. Anyway if you want my opinion on this at length check the previously mentioned page......P.S....I agree with almost everything Bearclaw had to say...and a lot of what everybody on all sides of the discussion had to say aswell...P.S.S....Pipes as stems for goblets is such old news...gimme a break...everyone ,even my grandmother thought of that like fifty years ago...not to hurt anyones feeling or be rude to anyone who likes to make things of that nature..........anyway....these lively discussions are super fun and thats what makes this site cool.......peace out everyone.......
    5/3/2005 1:19 AM
  • Bfd
    		 I would have bought that torch!
    Bfd: Wow......You all make great points. I dont feel that that pipes are dead at all. The creativity level on this site is pretty crazy. I understand that art isnt just about technique. But when someone busts out with a really technical piece thats super clean; thats pretty artistic. Maybe some of you feel that putting a ton of reversals into a piece isnt much of an artistic statement but to me it is. It takes time to get that good. It take patience. Patience is artistic in itself. It didnt just take a few hours to make a heady piece. Its taken years to make that piece. Ya know what I mean? The one thing that impresses me about art is the amount of time and energy that an artist puts into something. I can look at a piece of art and not like a thing about it, but I can appreciate the fact that the artist put that much time into it. It means something to them. There is something to be said about that. There are glass workers and there are glass artists. Artists push themselfs. Yeah there are production workers, but remember that production still pays the bills and alows us to try and be better artists. I dont feel artistic when I'm pumping out some bread and butter spoons. But those spoons pay for the matierals for me to do something more creative. I think that in a way, production is still apart of the artistic process. I've learned and earned by pipes. They sure arnt dead to me. I have more fun making the pieces I make than anyone could have using them. All art has intended use if ya think about. Even if its just to look at.
    5/3/2005 1:23 AM
  • Smiley
    		 ............
    Smiley: I really didn't intend to sound harsh on that last comment....paco..your pipe/concept art stuff is sweet....totally refreshing to see anything that deviates from the norm..rock on...
    5/3/2005 2:03 AM
  • Smiley
    		 Sol......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....
    Smiley: Personally,I think that's the most rellevent comment on this entire page....well said ,I couldn't agree more
    5/3/2005 2:18 AM
  • Sol
    		 thanks
    Sol: NOW SEND ME THE HOW TO GUIDE FOR RATTICELLOS>>>hahahahahahahhaahah
    5/3/2005 2:46 AM
  • Slinger
    		 lol
    Slinger: smiley, i was talking about pakoh's use of the spoons for the "stands" not the the acutal pipe goblets themselves, you didnt read that close enough or maybe i wasnt clear on that...anyway, i was just picking on you because of the actual words you used that your pieces are art but you need to put some "strategic holes" to sell it.... lookin at the work you do post the whole piece seems strategically set up to be a pipe, not just the placement of a few "holes", you use traditional shapes and patterns that sell well and are fun to make, and do take a degree of skill to pull off....is it art, yeah its a type of art, anything can be if you want it to be, to be extreme i could easily see how taking a shit on the sidewalk could be argued to be a form of performance art.... im curious as to the work you dont post, why you dont share it is not obvious to me, you sound pretty confident about your work, maybe you can elaborate.....anyway, its all love, hope i didnt ruffle your feathers using you as an example, you obviously have talent, id love to see what else you do with it.... on the pipes are dead thing, i think its interesting how really i think everyone is reacting more to the title of the piece, i think again, its a funny, cynical metaphor... is punk rock dead? no people still play it, but.....yo, you know what i think rocks, style.... wheres the style at? are we just making pipes for other pipe geeks to gawk at execution of technique??.... art can be simple, it doesnt need to be complicated, or take a long time, or be technical, or cost alot....
    5/3/2005 3:07 AM
  • Smiley
    		 your welcome.........but........
    Smiley: it's "RETTICELLO" ....I've got a thing about people not spelling that right........ or pronouncing it right..........
    5/3/2005 3:29 AM
  • Smiley
    		 right on with that last part.......
    Smiley: i was wondering about seeing some of your new work ,too...no feathers ruffled here ,dude....this is what its about ...the flow of ideas & opinions is what helps propel us all foreward.....w/ the pipes and stuff...yeah ,they're designed to pay the bills.....what are ya gonna do...and as far as the un posted stuff...I just don't want to see knock offs the next day ,or have the shit beat to death like all the other stuff we beat into boringness (real word ?)....lost my train of thought......ahhh..I'll resume some other time.....tired out........peace .........
    5/3/2005 3:52 AM
  • Smiley
    		 about the un posted...
    Smiley: I was mainly refering to my not posting "art"....with the pipes its hit or miss..sometimes I go for months w/out taking pix..but I go in and out different phases the whole time... so there's HUGE gaps in my photo archives...but none of it is anything that probably hasn't been done or thought of, or whatever....I make no claim to be the worlds' best pipemaker, or most original or anything else....but I,ve got my moments just like any other serious, aspiring glass worker....
    5/3/2005 4:13 AM
  • TBH
    		 the dude with the saw!!
    TBH: I'm still amazed at the skill it took to cut that fuckin torch in half. Holy shit. What type of saw was used?????
    5/3/2005 4:13 AM
  • LambsBread
    		 i dont buy it
    LambsBread: most of u say blah blah blah no art. well as much as u wanna argue what is art. i know production pipes to me are not art but and a big but. art is in the eye of the beholder. and we all work with a since of determanation. just because people use the same technical manipulation to get certain patters so what. i mean thats like saying every portrait in a museum is crap beacuase people just just keep painting land scapes. get over it glass is what u make it. and it is art even abstract artist get reconision for throughing paint at a canvas at least im in more controll than that plus like any true art there is a huge learning curve. not like just buying a urinal and putting it in a museum . it takes time and burns to get it done. so call it what u want im selling mine as art and charging accordingly.
    5/3/2005 4:22 AM
  • Smiley
    		 yeah!!!!
    Smiley: !!
    5/3/2005 4:26 AM
  • Slinger
    		 LOL
    Slinger: you dont buy it because it went over your head; "buying a urinal and putting it in a museum".... do yourself a favour and actually google "marcel duchamp".
    5/3/2005 4:51 AM
  • William
    		 THAT HURTS
    William: Man I work on a nortel every day I did not think it to be that bad of a torch. I have worked with glass for years doing production with which we can all agree is not art but a mean to some money for the bills. I believe that art is a form that causes other artist to mill over its existence. Time for me is another factor not just the time of creating, but time of thought also. I love the reaction of this photo of art it has been stimulating. Please continue to inspire
    5/3/2005 7:12 AM
  • Freeek
    		 My two cents
    Freeek: Well this is totally intresting... the age old quetion of what is art. Something I think that is often overlooked... the art of the flow... not the Flow the magazine but the flow.... the act of being in the moment and making decisions and seeing where it goes... sometimes we know and others we don't...the act of creating( as SOL said)...to me this is the art in this movement we are a part. It is living breathing thing that we all co-exist in. To me it makes no difference if you make pipes or goblets or dildo bead bubs... what matters is that you are contributing your energy to the flow.
    5/3/2005 7:20 AM
  • Freeek
    		 more
    Freeek: Its all an allegory for life... art imitates life...so depending where your standing it all looks different.
    5/3/2005 7:23 AM
  • Misticglass
    		 nice
    Misticglass: good composition, and professional looking photos. must have been fun slicing that torch in half! let me know if your ever coming back east. i would love for you to see my new shop. always welcome,

    morgan
    5/3/2005 8:01 AM
  • 3ripmin
    		 you rock paco...
    3ripmin: this piece is awesome!!!!! art does'nt have to make you feel good... keep up the good work bud....
    5/3/2005 8:57 AM
  • Adam G
    		 Pipes are dead
    Adam G: In a way I agree with paco, if we are on the same wavelength here. Don't let me put words in your mouth but this is how I take your comment. The pipe movement is over! Things will never be the same as they were a few years ago. I think it took a couple of years for some of us to get it through our heads, hoping things could return to how it was. Not only have things gotten to a point of repetition and nowhere really new to go. (There are few things yet to see but for the most part it's all been done, or as slinger said just a new twist) Don't get me wrong, and I’m sure many peeps here feel the same, I love making pipes. People will still order pipes; people will be still making pipes for years to come, as will I. But the pipe movement is over and it can only go downhill from here.It’s sad but that’s my 2 cents
    5/3/2005 9:05 AM
  • Sovereignty Glass
    		 O YEAH AND
    Sovereignty Glass: dope piece, dope stand, and for me personally, i think it would be even doper if you cut the bub in half too, as it allready has Great symmetry. Loving the all black
    5/3/2005 9:10 AM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 no
    Bearclaw78: i disagree man! the pipe movement may not be what it once was...it took a hit, that's all...it'll bounce back.. but not dead.....maybe i'm not accepting it as you say, but i won't accept it. there is plenty of stuff yet to see.... i promise!
    5/3/2005 9:24 AM
  • Adam G
    		 elephant ears are delicious!
    Adam G: Bearclaw, you are an exception to everything being the same, i know you have heard it alot but you do have mad original style.
    5/3/2005 9:42 AM
  • Pipe Dreams Glass Studio
    		 WOW
    Pipe Dreams Glass Studio: dude u guys drive me crazy man. a piece of shit on a paper plate in a corner of an empty room could be art to some. who r we to decide what is art and what is not.
    5/3/2005 11:07 AM
  • metzglass
    		 hmm
    Metzglass: so when someone goes to make a big "headie" piece heres what they do, i plan on using these 10 techniques and this shape, and i'm gonna make everything compliment eachother and flow nicely.. how is that any different from lets say the painter emily carr doing one of her tree paintings? she puts her trees and her rocks an her landscape and makes sure everything compliments eachother and flows nicely maybe even decides to put a nice bridge over the stream, who knows, and her work is deffinetly art but she uses the same stuff over and over, but differently everytime.. unless your making exact replicas of other peoples work i mean 100% exactly the same then that i'd say isn't art TO ME..
    5/3/2005 11:10 AM
  • Pipe Dreams Glass Studio
    		 bearclaw
    Pipe Dreams Glass Studio: "there is plenty of stuff yet to see.... i promise!" well lets see man i know ur holding out on us lol
    5/3/2005 11:11 AM
  • Smiley
    		 !!!!!!!!!!!
    Smiley: Freek summed it up nicely ,so did metzglass....but nobodys making the distinction between "modern or conceptual"art...I.E.dog shit ,urinals,etc...and traditional art,...these are two ,far flung corners of the same universe....but to me ,all the urinals ,shit ,etc,and the feelings they evoke(genarally speaking here, plenty of exceptions...I'm not an idiot)is a bunch of crap ,spewed by pseudo-intellectuals ,trying to sound sophisticated....again I refer you guys to the goblet page in my gallery ....I'm trying to remember the guys name...but in the mid 90s there was this dude in nyc that threw together some trash ,litterally,and was the big shit and everyone clammered about social signifagance,and the reflections of this n that,blah ,blah ,blah.And this dude actually had the balls to say "there is No meaning ,i threw together some shit and you fools sat around inventing meaning and bullshit ,and ate it all up"........eye of the beholder... for sure...
    5/3/2005 12:38 AM
  • Joseph Corcoran
    		 art
    Joseph Corcoran: Whether something is "art" or not is in the eye of the beholder 100%.
    5/3/2005 1:11 PM
  • Joseph Corcoran
    		 marbleslinger?
    Joseph Corcoran: Hey Aaron didn't you just throw a show less than a year ago showcasing pipes as "art"? I just think you are coming off a bit harsh. I still <3 ya bro but "art" is truly in the eyes of the beholder, if someone believes that Nomad's pankers or smiley's bubs are art then he is an ARTIST, at least to the person that believes he is.... I'm really not trying to start anything, just an interesting conversation.
    I love the piece BTW pako, makes you really think.
    5/3/2005 1:19 PM
  • Doshworld
    		 yo-
    Doshworld: most of the 'greats' painterz sculptorz etc-they did ‘proto’ work to pay the billz, crap they maybe didnt want to do for some rich aristocrat, ordering another painting of him/herself. and even if itz crap and the artist declarez it az crap and their is all this controversy over it being crap or art or crap-art and blah blah its still the whole thing that effected time and space!!! maybe we feel bad, maybe happy, maybe inspired or moved we still feel something and that my fellow artist is a movement good bad it still moved, in the flow az earlier posted, like the force the energy that swirlz all around us, all we have is to open and mingle with it, otherwise we close our self off from it and start JUDGING everything around us, consumed by our own fear!- ill be on the open to the force side of that! open for anything open to growth though the good bad and the ugly, yo! P.s. a lot of stuff out their,-wait in fact everything out their hits a plateau! and becomes a bit repetitious! Its never like the first time?! With anything, itz all in your mind! Look at everything around you!, probably based on an earlier design, modified, retro fitted, it wuz big once- now itz back and on and on and on…nothing new folks
    5/3/2005 2:22 PM
  • metzglass
    		 ya
    Metzglass: Well the only way you can settle this is to take it to one extreme or another.. I think life is an amazing work of art.. and making a living, getting by, paying the pills, all takes motivation, inspiration, dedication.. that to me is a finely tuned work of art, wether your making carboard boxes in a factory or cranking out rap and rakes... but like i said thats taking it to an extreme an ending the argument with "life is art" and thats kind of borring.. but i don't get how you can claim the piss is any better then some water dyed blue, piss was just a really good idea.. what if i stuck a door knob on a piece? is that any differn't? its random and weird and no ones done it.. is a really good idea and art the same thing? art=good idea, good idea-art? err i could go on i'll save it for later..
    5/3/2005 3:48 PM
  • metzglass
    		 Heres the dictionary discription
    Metzglass: Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

    The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
    The study of these activities.
    The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
    High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
    A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
    A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.

    A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
    A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.

    Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
    Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).

    arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
    Artful contrivance; cunning.
    Printing. Illustrative material.

    And theres dozens of other discriptions...
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=art
    5/3/2005 3:55 PM
  • metzglass
    		 hmm
    Metzglass: on a second thought i don't think yall would want answers from the dictionary.. might help form an opinion though
    5/3/2005 4:05 PM
  • Smiley
    		 definition...........
    Smiley: that about clears it up for me...you can't get a more well-articulated answer of the question "what is art"......................
    5/3/2005 6:27 PM
  • Chris Carlson
    		 reversals...
    Chris Carlson: are as pretty as flowers. i was amazed by the spirograph as a child and see them as beautiful art. this argument is infinite.... we all know that too.what do you call a guy with no arms and no legs, hangin on the wall? Art. what do you call his arms and legs? pieces of art. cha-ching!!
    5/3/2005 6:43 PM
  • metzglass
    		 i think..
    Metzglass: a good joke is a work of art am i right? but after you hear it over and over it gauges vertualy no reaction there for has no artistic value TO YOU... now i can understand feeling the same about headies composed of blingers honey combs and reversals.. i'm sure slinger has seen hundreds upon hundreds of reversal blinger pieces so they don't gauge any reaction for him correct me if im wrong slinger.. but after seeing the same stuff thousonds of times i could understand why its lost its artistic value for you (its not all the same shit though it all has a unique style).hell when i was old enough to comprehend highway systems that made me feel all kinds of emotions.. so ya i would consider that art but now i'v seen and lived around them for years they mean nothing to me anymore.. if you didn't blow or collect glass and you saw one of smilelys sick tubes would you say "he sure pieced those overdone techniques into a cool looking piece of craft" i'd [probably say damn thats a siiick work of art and would deffinetly be puzzled with anyone that dosn't think so.. hope i'm not coming off like jack ass slinger no offence intended, just my opinion on the matter.. Peace
    5/3/2005 6:53 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 all right
    Bearclaw78: so........we have defined ART... now let's talk about the another issue... who is going to buy it...... ha ha ha...and how much might they pay for a concept...how do we put a monatary value on such things? this also defines what is art, or at least the power that a piece holds....and back to the beholder,,,,,, how much do they value it? how much does the ARTIST value it??ART IS BEAUTIFUL......ARTISTS ARE BEAUTIFUL...people who love and appreciate art are beautiful...
    5/3/2005 7:35 PM
  • Mark F
    		 Killer
    Mark F: That piece is badass.
    5/4/2005 2:16 PM
  • Slinger
    		 here's my 2cents (again)
    Slinger: the argument really isnt over what is and isn't art. Obviously "art" as well as "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder. BUT, behind that eye, i hope, is a brain; and to this beholder, that is precisely what "pipes are dead" is about, "engaging your mind"... it is not a statement, but a question, and it asks you for an answer, just as pakoh posted: "are pipes dead? prove me wrong".... the piece is calling out for all of us to enagage and maybe re-engage our mental. Yes a reversal can be used within a piece of art, but its only going to be as effective as the "mindfulness" behind the choice. Patterns and forms and colours are powerful allies in the qwest to express ideas and emotions... if "pipe art" is going to evolve past the point that it is at now, the key to that evolution will be artists pushing the limits of their brain muscles. The more we consciouly think about what it is we are doing, more ctitical thinking about relationship of form and colour, stop and discuss even aspects of our "art" that we take for granted, then the more we can transcend stagnation and each find personal expression.... btw, lol, i just wanted to say, i type all this bullshit out more for myself than anyone else, so i hope when i get extreme with my ideas no one takes offense, more than anything, i am trying to challenge myself, at the same time challenge the whole, for we are one. peace.
    5/4/2005 2:59 PM
  • Slinger
    		 priceing
    Slinger: btw bearclaw, thats an interesting issue you bring up, thati have been thinking about alot for some time, how do we or more importantly, the "art world" value art? how is one piece $500, and another $5000 and another %50,0000? and when you look at a $50,000 piece, what makes it $50g's and not 25g's or $100g's?? a friend of mine who used to be a professional curator at a gallery tried to shed some light on this for me. He explained to me that art is a commodity and one of the main basis for price involves the relevance of the piece in relation to an artists body of work. In other words, if you are a career artist, and you produce a body of work over that career, each piece from that body of work is valued based on the fact that it comes from a specific context, and different factors will increase the value of a piece based on the commodity of an artist in general. The easiest example of this is death, sorry thats kinda morbid, but i dont think anything could make the value of art go up anymore than the death of the artist, because then obviously there will be no more art from that person, and if there is demand, well supply just became finite...ya dig? so thats why artists make resumes and sign their work. Signing your work is important because it officially puts it in the context of a "body of work". From there, whatever you do in your career will affect the value of your art. If you look at milon townsend for instance, he lists in his bio all the famous organizations and corporations that have acquired his work. He does this, because that actually increases the value of his work. The fact that he can say hes created a piece for Pres Bush (yuck!) and has a piece in the Corning Museum, and has been written up in this or that magazine, that all adds value to the commodity of his art. Otherwise, my general opinion on valueing art is that its worth whatever you can convince someone its worth, seems very psychological...
    5/4/2005 3:26 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 good words
    Bearclaw78: thanks for shedding that light to me. it clears some things up in my head. a little structure to an on going uncertainty.it's one of the hardest aspects of this career.in my opinion.
    5/4/2005 4:17 PM
  • Kevin Nail
    		 HAHA
    Kevin Nail: Paco you are fucking awesome man... NICE PIECE and CONCEPT. Yes it's dead lol- it's just never going to be what it used to be IMO. I just want to point out (with NO disrespect) to everyone here purporting to be an artist and at the same time say that art is in the eye of the beholder, that I think you have an incoherent argument. If the end all be all of what "art" is, is in the person WHO DID NOT MAKE IT- then WTF is with calling the person who DID make it an artist OR craft person for that matter? Why does it matter what we think of ourselves if what truly matters is what is experienced by everyone else besides US, the CREATOR. I am a creator- whatever with being an artist... I'm happy with that.
    5/4/2005 4:40 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 hmm
    Bearclaw78: the end all be all of what art is.. ISN'T in the PERSON WHO DIDN'T MAKE IT.. i think it is in the "artist". because we are the very first to behold it as we create it. like you said we are creators, we get to decide what we think looks beautiful. we artists are the first beholders. doesn't sound incoherent to me.....but you are right it doesn't really matter does it
    ? only if it affects what we create... and if what we create ceases to be beautiful because of a bad out look on what is or isn't art.
    5/4/2005 4:57 PM
  • Bearclaw78
    		 as i re -read that
    Bearclaw78: it seems to me to be a circle of thought,,,, it comes right back into itself.....now that is beautiful,,,,ha ha wonder if i or any of you could capture this concept in glass?
    5/4/2005 5:02 PM
  • Slinger
    		 well...
    Slinger: its all semantics, eye of the beholder is really just another way of saying its subjective....so whomever is "beholding" it can think whatever the hell they want, and of course the creator can say, "well i dont give a fuck what any of yall think, its about what i think!" guess it depends on what your artistic agenda is, are you just expressing some deep private thing from within you, or maybe are you trying to communicate a message, or ask a question, or a combination of these things (usually).... have you guys ever heard of GG Allin??!!
    5/4/2005 6:51 PM
  • david hasslehoff (alex)
    		 man ....
    David Hasslehoff Alex: i would be scared if there wern't people like g.g. allin
    5/4/2005 7:00 PM
  • LambsBread
    		 it dosent matter
    LambsBread: you are saying that it cant be art well look at what this gallery is a pipe art piece point and case also u just defend yourself with urinal and shit.. well glass isnt shit in a corner i work hard and put thought into most of my work sure i make production but my eyes arnt closed im focused plus yea we do use alot of the same tecs but at the same time there are people changing the way we look at it. glass and the way its worked is in constant evolution so who are u to judge. art is opinion because it sparks imagination or thought. yeah mt wrap in rake spoons are not art it a craft but when i spend 3 day making my theme cum true and it happens to be smokable so what the same amount of work if not more went into it than my soild sculpture art. maybe u dont make art but when i want 2 i do. not everything i make is art. but that is the line of art and craft not art or shit.
    5/4/2005 11:39 PM
  • Slinger
    		 are talking to me?
    Slinger: i lost you man, maybe you should re-read my posts and respond to what i actually wrote, and to clear something up, i have NO problem with "prodo", i make it all the time, its called a "job"....and sometimes, one man's prodo is another man's headdie :), theres a thought for ya....
    5/5/2005 2:13 AM
  • Timez
    		 beautiful
    Timez: Paco, it seems that almost as good as this piece you have created this fantastic dialogue. Though I think it may have gotten a bit off track (If there is such a thing) the ideas explored were very interesting and inspiring. Slinger, For a minute there I wasn't sure if I was connecting with what you were saying, I thought you were diggin yourself in a hole for a sec, but that here's my 2 cents post was seemingly identical to what I had in my head after reading this long ass thing.

    Now the subject matter of the piece . . . I think that I would have to disagree that pipes are dead. When were they ever alive? They have been made for hundreds of years. Are glass pipes dead? When have they ever been more alive? Were they more alive back in the 90's, when much was shrouded in the glass curtain? Were they more alive when you made them (the general you)? How about right before OPD, when the market was flourishing? How could a lousy bust, a scare, kill glass pipes if that is your meaning? The market is flourishing now. True, imports seem to be killin the scene. I can see how this may be your meaning, but at the same time the imports scare but I ain't backin down. I feel that the very base of your sculpture betrays your title. The major burner cut in half can be seen as a metaphor for this torch becoming obsolete. It became obsolete because of this new pipe industry, showing that not only are pipes not dead, they are thriving!!!

    However, if I take your title a bit less litarelly I see this black pipe not representing "death", but being devoid of surface pattern and therefore putting form on display. This goes along with what Slinger is getting at with the reversals, for an amount of intelligence and conciousness to be put into your work. Slinger, love this line-"stop and discuss even aspects of our "art" that we take for granted, then the more we can transcend stagnation and each find personal expression". Now I'm reading this piece as a call out to pipemakers to make sure that pipemaking doesn't die! Truly great stuff! You guys rock.
    5/5/2005 3:57 AM
  • Rustyglass
    		 Why do we even blow glass then?
    Rustyglass: For me, glass is an OUTLET for artistic expression. Whether Im making "art"or not. I think for most of us, pipes really do express our feelings, our passions. How many of us would even be blowing glass if it were't for pipes? What would we be doing without the great vehicle the pipe has become for expressing ourselves? Painting, drawing,....and oh yeah, working 40 hours aweek somewhere. I express myself through glass as often as I can, and when I cant..Im making prodo...working. Im thankful that I have pipes as an outlet for work as well. Without working, life would be boring. The opiate of the masses yada,yada,yada. So for me if pipes die, then so will my flameworking career. Amazing piece.
    5/5/2005 4:37 PM
  • Doshworld
    		 good wordz
    Doshworld: i have enjoyed everyonez post its good to here how the community feelz, even when the note strikes an emotional cord the melody iz beautiful, keep up the great work and deep thoughts....
    5/6/2005 12:29 AM
  • Mail
    		 what the fuck
    Mail: you guys sound like a bunch of fuckin tweekers.
    5/6/2005 5:38 PM
  • PaKoH
    		 common sense - ressurection
    PaKoH: i like the way rusty describes his relation with glass. For truely inspirational, sick work check out Marcel Duchamp, Andy Goldsworthy, and Tom Friedman.

    peace*
    5/7/2005 0:49 AM
  • metzglass
    		 well
    Metzglass: "art" as well as "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder. BUT, behind that eye, i hope, is a brain"

    I'm not sure i understand your argument slinger.. are you saying if the beholder isn't an edjucated art connisuer then he can't spot out real art? you can dismiss how a "dumb" person feels about a piece? but ya I'm not sure if your debating in response to other peoples comments.. peace out
    5/8/2005 12:28 AM
  • WG
    		 pipes are dead
    WG: Yo wattup slinger...diggin your new pieces. I dont check out this site often but i came on the right day i guess cuz this is interesting. To me i use glass as a form of expression at a certain moment influenced by either a mood or seeing someone elses art that forces me to think. I dj and do the same thing with records and some even view the soundscape of a collection of tunes is art while creating a vibe for a crowd. I been doing all solid black pieces since january cuz it describes my mood(pissed off) and before that it was all silver beach (met a new chick) If some view my expression as art..hey cool buy it then haha. I dont think pipes are dead...i basically call that being bored. AS long as i have kats like Mada, Slinger, Max Polin, Bearclaw provoking me to think im gonna use glass to express myself.
    5/8/2005 5:12 PM
  • Slinger
    		 holla!
    Slinger: metz, i think i was just trying to encourage myself and peeps to engage their mind. Some art is "spoon fed" and other pieces require a bit of "inner dialogue" to wrap yourself around them. In my mind right now im thinking about most hollywood movies, and how they are so formulaic and designed specifically to make money off of a target audience. Its not that some of these films cant be enjoyable, and it might be a filmakers desire to produce these type of movies. I personally get frustrated with most of those movies(although imnot a tight ass, some of that shit is funny) but personally i enjoy something a little more thought provoking as opposed to mind numbing.
    WG, thats not my work, its pakoh's, we both have a similar cynical outlook on things, i just have a bigger mouth...
    5/8/2005 6:32 PM
  • metzglass
    		 well
    Metzglass: i deffinetly have to agree the movie anologie.. I still think its in the eye of the beholder. i grew out of shitty hollywood movies quite fast, as i did rape and rakes and piles of reversals.. its just not art TO ME..
    5/9/2005 1:42 PM
  • metzglass
    		 haha
    Metzglass: rap and rake*
    5/10/2005 2:11 PM
  • rosiedog
    		 ok
    Rosiedog: Persoally im not that into it as a visually stimulating piece of art. But i like what it means to me. To me I think Paco means that pipes are dead in that most of the work here is unoriginal, boring, used up, etc... Paco has earned the right for that opinion by example of his work in comparison to all the other played out styles and designs(which for the most part are all similar). If anything i think if peeps really care they should try and prove Paco wrong by making their aim to not be like all the other styles on this board. I dont fuckin' know.....

    NOT being the same is just another style in itself! Not having a style is a style! being original becomes unoriginal!
    The whole art thing is a walking contradictory catch 22.
    Everything in existence that is recognized by intelect can be considered art depending on the intelectual's point of veiw. If the observer believes it to be art then there is no denying that reality(weather you agree with him or not). The obsever's belief that it is art is a real belief, ands it is no less real then someone else's belief that it is not art.

    Its all about THE BEHOLDER!

    I am the beholder, and i like what the message means to me, but i still think its an ugly-ass piece of art...I wouldnt want it on my shelf, but thats just me. Good thinking though Paco....whatever it is the fuck you think, I hope your statement here inspires some of the posters to make some new stuff or something. My Favorite thing about this piece is that it might possibly invoke and provoke some change in this pipe culture.

    Change is good.
    5/23/2005 2:12 AM
  • Chris Carlson
    		 pakoh's
    Chris Carlson: torch didn't die in vain...
    5/30/2005 10:15 AM
  • James Shelton
    		 Don't forget Colorado
    James Shelton: I think you woul be selling this movie short if you failed to explore the "art pipe" movement in CO.

    Where did you do your study of ART in all of its forms......... Smiley?
    6/1/2005 6:00 PM
  • R O C K S T A R Glassworks
    		 my turn to speak....
    R O C K S T A R Glassworks: OK, I'm an east coaster. To me pipes are my job. I never thought that I'd make money in glass because of all the competition. My designs for my prodo are slick, fairly well researched, and my manufacturing is consistent.
    Am I an artist? To me no. To some kids at the store who run home with one my prodo lizard spoons thinking it's the coolest thing ever, I am.
    Now typically I hate art. Most first friday openings are filled with absolutely horrible paintings that have nothing new in the conceptual area as well as in the technique area. Are they artists? I guess....
    To me pipes are only alive when someone asks me to conceptualize their ideas. You know "my wife needs a wet piece that looks like a butterfly and she loves purple". This to me follows in the ancient masters tradition of doing whatever the hell they had to do to pay the rent.
    Now as an east coaster I find that no matter what kind of concepts and flow and shape I ram into my artsy pieces, no one buys them.
    It's not that I totally suck, it's just that most city folks want to spend about 20-30 on a utilitarian piece of glass that they will probably break, or lose in a month.
    I have a job, I make prodo all the time. It pays my bills. I am a craftsman.
    Once in a while I have a really cool idea with concept and meaning. If I've made enough prodo and have the materials and time I become an artist for a little bit.
    Pipes were never alive to me anyway. Before glass I wouldn't spend more than $20 on a piece at the shop because I'd lose it or beak it.
    After glass I still wonder who that person was that blew 300-400 on a nice bub of mine that actually sold to a shop.
    oh well thats my two cents
    cheers
    6/13/2005 7:13 AM
  • PaKoH
    		 ATTENTION STEPHEN (who emailed me)
    PaKoH: This message was sent to me privately by some random moron:

    "hey man my name is stephen i wanted to write a post about death of
    pipes how can people say that glass is not art i study art. art is what
    people enjoy doing whats prety and awsome what about cooks thats art jus
    because u eat it dosent mean its not atr the person that made that plate
    think it is i love the art that u do any bodie elses it upsets me when
    people beat their selfs doing what they love art is what u want it to
    be people with with the sense nows that blowing glass is art jus as some
    one setting in front of canvis how is it art if you set in front of a
    apple or a tree and put it on paper u people think on that and let me no"

    just wanted to post this in a public place so others can see it. To stephen: I dont come to your job and slap the dick out of your mouth do I? Why dont you read the explanations posted in this thread before you put yourself out there to look like the idiot you are. Why dont you look at this piece in the context of the other work that is in my gallery? Studing art IS NOT looking at this website inbetween choking your chicken. Lay off the crack pipe asshole.
    7/18/2005 4:45 PM
  • Chazbot9
    		 My Eyes Hurt....
    Chazbot9: Wow,

    talk about past the peace pipe around on this comment section.

    By the time I read everyones post, to get to say how outstanding this piece is.

    My eyes dam near melted from the screen radiation!

    I could say allot, but I'm behind marbleslinger,

    He made some dam good points about art.

    As did Bearclaw,TimeZ and others.

    But seriously...

    ---=== YOU ===---

    ---=== SAWED ===---

    ---=== A ===---

    ---=== TORCH ===---

    ---=== IN ===---

    --=== HALF! ===---

    Some where, the guy (at) Nortel who designed it is weeping.

    Loudly.

    Now I gotta one up you and saw one of our lathes in half ;->

    -Charley
    12/31/2005 2:39 AM
  • Bern Glass
    		 wow...ok so
    Bern Glass: it is late april 2006, i have just now got the time to finally read all fo this post...and let me say first and formost..thank you paco for engaging so many great minds... I for one am definately inspired by you and your loud mouth bro...lol... i to strive to always fall alittle outside the boundries of whats "in"...the way i take all of this pipes are dead stuff is that paco maybe just maybe wanted just what happened all of these great minds suddenly engaged.. wether or not anyone else does aything about him saying pipes are dead or not wasnt what he wanted i dont think.. i think he wanted mind engagement... art? its funny that peeps are even attempting to argue over what art is...art is nothing.. its a word... thats all it is... dont try to classify your creations, just know you created... to tell peeps we are glass artists is just a way to say without sounding funny we are glass "blowers." ..so anyways i just wanted to post on this fabulous discussion.. i want to thank all who posted on this topic and especially to paco again for engaging minds...peace
    live free...
    4/28/2006 12:31 AM
  • Sheepdawg Glasscraft
    		 UMMMMMMMMMM!!!! .............. Yahhh!!!!
    Sheepdawg Glasscraft: It took so long to scroll down I forgot what I was gonna write...... Good job bro. It definatly made quite the wirlwind of comments. Really nice to see the full circle through a piece of art. Destruction to contruction of the creation through inspiration,or something !!!! Yupp nice piece to say the least!....Jordan...
    5/2/2007 6:26 PM
  • kansas
    		 evolution
    Kansas: Glass pipes is probably the most constantly evolving artform on the planet. Coming from someone making some of the most unique glass, by my observation more creative than inspired or learned, im very surprised by your comments. There are more pipe makers every day and more and more of us making production work for profit alone which may diminish artistic qualities for our genre as a whole, but this website proves that pipes are not dead and are in fact presently at its prime, evolving every day. I respect your comments and love to see the opinions of others on this page as this topic has crossed all of our minds. I am an artist, but I dont always make art.
    5/25/2007 11:58 AM
  • Daddy O
    		 ///
    Daddy O: I know this post is old, but here's my .02 anyway.
    First, lets end this right now. Art is subjective. That means, if something is art to YOU, then it is art. That same thing, through someone else's eyes, may not be art. This means that something can be art, and not be art, at the same time. This is one of those rare occasions when everyone, no matter what their opinion is, is right. Everything is art and nothing is art.
    As far as pipes being dead goes, I think this site, and community, proves that statement wrong.
    I love this piece Pakoh. Anything that promotes this much thought is art in my book. Of course, I tend to agree with you and Slinger that "art" needs to do more than just be pretty. I have made several works that I consider to be art. Maybe even fine art, but none of them had a bowl or a carb. lol
    11/29/2007 9:07 AM
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